I was raised as a Christian (formally) while being exposed to Buddhist practices (informally), which led me to study world religions, as well as "new agey" type of books. Your journey, however, reminds me of how you are pushing though hundreds and hundreds of years of history, ritual, and beliefs about men and women's roles in Christianity. Not an easy thing to unravel, but so glad you've found likeminded souls.
I think especially for the Abrahamic faiths, for a long time have they been used as a convenient method to further solidify the inherent nature of patriarchy in our system.
Yes... it is convenient. Who can argue with scripture? What if scripture was mistranslated or misinterpreted? That is the concern… The more you dig, the more concerning it is. Thanks for sharing!
I’m a complementarian (I believe in gender roles within marriage and the church), but I think this teaching has been often mistaught, misunderstood, and often twisted to subjugate women. The role of helper was never meant to be demeaning, like you pointed out, the Holy Spirit is called our Helper. God the Father is called our Help. It is a position of both servanthood and power. People hear “submit” and cringe but the other side that is often not included is husbands are called to love their wives with the same sacrificial love that Jesus loved the church. Both husbands and wives are called to do very hard and servant-hearted things here. the call to submit is not women being less valued than men. Both men and women have equal value, both made in the image of God, Jesus certainly elevated the social status of women in their culture, so this command to submit to a husband was never meant to be demeaning to women. This 9 minute podcast talks about the beauty of complementarity in a marriage when done right (2 women share their experiences with being raised in feminist homes and embracing complementarianism in marriage later in life) https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/the-beauty-of-complementarity/ Submission doesn’t mean laying down rights. Women are still supposed to use their gifts and talents help their families thrive(through vocation or dividing labor in a way that lets her contribute best) , and that means they do what they’re good at and the husband graciously accepts that help and leads their marriage by serving her as Christ came to love and serve his bride, the church, dying to himself and giving up his “rights”. I guess what I’m saying is the teaching of “submission” is not a bad thing when viewed biblically and feminism isn’t always the answer to badly-taught complementarianism. We can still be valued and respected and use our talents while choosing to follow the leadership of a husband who loves us sacrificially and leads in a servant-hearted manner as a Christ loved us just like we can gladly submit to Christ because he loved us enough to give up his life for us.
Yes, I hear you on a lot of things - thank you for sharing.
I think complementarianism in theory makes sense but execution is generally flawed. Also, according to the new scholarship I read, women were leaders and preachers in the early church. There is bias in biblical translation and interpretation. I’ll have a post coming out about that in a few weeks. But it is very concerning to me. The books I read are much more thorough than what I can explain here, since I’m not a biblical scholar. 😅 but I’d be open to do a bookclub etc on this sometime with interested folks.
Also, when I looked up the definition of feminist, it just means women are equal to men, not superior. I’m just asking for equality. This issue is especially important to me as the mother of two daughters.
I definitely agree women should be valued as equals. I guess the word “feminist” today has the implications of “superiority” even if originally it was meant for equality. So I tend to avoid that term now cuz it feels like it devalues men in many contexts. Maybe we need a new word!
There’s definitely debate about how certain texts are interpreted (like does a word mean women in general or does it mean deacons’ wives in context? What did preaching include when Paul said women are not to preach?) and what basis does the prohibition of women in church leadership come from (if it’s based on pre-fall Creation order which was declared good, then does that mean that this order still stands or was the prohibition just valid for that cultural moment in time?) Lots of debate in Christian circles on this.
I also agree that execution is often flawed, unfortunately, because we are flawed and sinful. But to me, that doesn’t mean we should throw the idea out, but rather try to redeem it by executing it rightly. Our church doesn’t allow women elders and our deaconess are not ordained but still on the board of deacons and still have equal say and respect in diaconal meetings. Our staff includes women and women serve in every area of the church except eldership but elders regularly listen to women and value their input, but ultimately they are held responsible for the decisions that are made. Our church has many women who work outside the home but also many who don’t and both are decisions equally valued. I think when the “traditional roles” include stereotypes that are not biblically mandated (eg, women being barefoot and pregnant), that’s bothers me and isn’t right. So to me, it’s about discerning which aspects of gender roles are biblically commanded vs what has been passed down by tradition/culture and those are often not biblically mandated so they should not be held to. But I get why there’s pushback against badly taught gender roles because they have been misused to justify devaluing women, unfortunately.
A further problem with complementarianism is that it defines (and therefore restricts) the roles people are able to play based on gender. Why is it helpful to tell people they can’t follow their talents and passions because they’re not the right gender?
Absolutely… it doesn’t make sense. Some of my female friends have the gift of preaching and it is strange to have a gift that they can’t use because of their gender?
By the way, thanks for your question about defining the word feminist. I just updated the story at the end and realized – Jesus was a feminist. He definitely believed women were equal to men. If Complementarianism could be executed perfectly I would be OK with it, but most of the time it is not. Especially in our capitalist society where we assign value with dollars… Even the Church pays women less than men for similar roles https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/p/evangelical-bro-code-church-women-unfair-pay
Yes agree! That’s great your church has deaconesses. We don’t - just male elders and male pastors. Both genders can be on council.
Yes I too was surprised the definition of feminism is just for equality -I def stand by it!
I do have to say with only male pastors, it’s tough to listen to male sermons 95% of the time. Women have different issues and needs and it’s nice to have some relevant teaching (like I want to talk about this story I just wrote!).
when I took perspectives (missions class) they talked about bringing the gospel relevant to cultural context. Women have a diff culture/life/experience than men - so I want to hear about teaching about it and also feel seen.
I was raised as a Christian (formally) while being exposed to Buddhist practices (informally), which led me to study world religions, as well as "new agey" type of books. Your journey, however, reminds me of how you are pushing though hundreds and hundreds of years of history, ritual, and beliefs about men and women's roles in Christianity. Not an easy thing to unravel, but so glad you've found likeminded souls.
Thanks for your encouragement! It has been a journey and a lot of wrestling, but grateful to have the new scholarship available!
I think especially for the Abrahamic faiths, for a long time have they been used as a convenient method to further solidify the inherent nature of patriarchy in our system.
Yes... it is convenient. Who can argue with scripture? What if scripture was mistranslated or misinterpreted? That is the concern… The more you dig, the more concerning it is. Thanks for sharing!
I’m a complementarian (I believe in gender roles within marriage and the church), but I think this teaching has been often mistaught, misunderstood, and often twisted to subjugate women. The role of helper was never meant to be demeaning, like you pointed out, the Holy Spirit is called our Helper. God the Father is called our Help. It is a position of both servanthood and power. People hear “submit” and cringe but the other side that is often not included is husbands are called to love their wives with the same sacrificial love that Jesus loved the church. Both husbands and wives are called to do very hard and servant-hearted things here. the call to submit is not women being less valued than men. Both men and women have equal value, both made in the image of God, Jesus certainly elevated the social status of women in their culture, so this command to submit to a husband was never meant to be demeaning to women. This 9 minute podcast talks about the beauty of complementarity in a marriage when done right (2 women share their experiences with being raised in feminist homes and embracing complementarianism in marriage later in life) https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/tgc-podcast/the-beauty-of-complementarity/ Submission doesn’t mean laying down rights. Women are still supposed to use their gifts and talents help their families thrive(through vocation or dividing labor in a way that lets her contribute best) , and that means they do what they’re good at and the husband graciously accepts that help and leads their marriage by serving her as Christ came to love and serve his bride, the church, dying to himself and giving up his “rights”. I guess what I’m saying is the teaching of “submission” is not a bad thing when viewed biblically and feminism isn’t always the answer to badly-taught complementarianism. We can still be valued and respected and use our talents while choosing to follow the leadership of a husband who loves us sacrificially and leads in a servant-hearted manner as a Christ loved us just like we can gladly submit to Christ because he loved us enough to give up his life for us.
Yes, I hear you on a lot of things - thank you for sharing.
I think complementarianism in theory makes sense but execution is generally flawed. Also, according to the new scholarship I read, women were leaders and preachers in the early church. There is bias in biblical translation and interpretation. I’ll have a post coming out about that in a few weeks. But it is very concerning to me. The books I read are much more thorough than what I can explain here, since I’m not a biblical scholar. 😅 but I’d be open to do a bookclub etc on this sometime with interested folks.
Also, when I looked up the definition of feminist, it just means women are equal to men, not superior. I’m just asking for equality. This issue is especially important to me as the mother of two daughters.
I definitely agree women should be valued as equals. I guess the word “feminist” today has the implications of “superiority” even if originally it was meant for equality. So I tend to avoid that term now cuz it feels like it devalues men in many contexts. Maybe we need a new word!
There’s definitely debate about how certain texts are interpreted (like does a word mean women in general or does it mean deacons’ wives in context? What did preaching include when Paul said women are not to preach?) and what basis does the prohibition of women in church leadership come from (if it’s based on pre-fall Creation order which was declared good, then does that mean that this order still stands or was the prohibition just valid for that cultural moment in time?) Lots of debate in Christian circles on this.
I also agree that execution is often flawed, unfortunately, because we are flawed and sinful. But to me, that doesn’t mean we should throw the idea out, but rather try to redeem it by executing it rightly. Our church doesn’t allow women elders and our deaconess are not ordained but still on the board of deacons and still have equal say and respect in diaconal meetings. Our staff includes women and women serve in every area of the church except eldership but elders regularly listen to women and value their input, but ultimately they are held responsible for the decisions that are made. Our church has many women who work outside the home but also many who don’t and both are decisions equally valued. I think when the “traditional roles” include stereotypes that are not biblically mandated (eg, women being barefoot and pregnant), that’s bothers me and isn’t right. So to me, it’s about discerning which aspects of gender roles are biblically commanded vs what has been passed down by tradition/culture and those are often not biblically mandated so they should not be held to. But I get why there’s pushback against badly taught gender roles because they have been misused to justify devaluing women, unfortunately.
A further problem with complementarianism is that it defines (and therefore restricts) the roles people are able to play based on gender. Why is it helpful to tell people they can’t follow their talents and passions because they’re not the right gender?
Absolutely… it doesn’t make sense. Some of my female friends have the gift of preaching and it is strange to have a gift that they can’t use because of their gender?
By the way, thanks for your question about defining the word feminist. I just updated the story at the end and realized – Jesus was a feminist. He definitely believed women were equal to men. If Complementarianism could be executed perfectly I would be OK with it, but most of the time it is not. Especially in our capitalist society where we assign value with dollars… Even the Church pays women less than men for similar roles https://katelynbeaty.substack.com/p/evangelical-bro-code-church-women-unfair-pay
Yes agree! That’s great your church has deaconesses. We don’t - just male elders and male pastors. Both genders can be on council.
Yes I too was surprised the definition of feminism is just for equality -I def stand by it!
I do have to say with only male pastors, it’s tough to listen to male sermons 95% of the time. Women have different issues and needs and it’s nice to have some relevant teaching (like I want to talk about this story I just wrote!).
when I took perspectives (missions class) they talked about bringing the gospel relevant to cultural context. Women have a diff culture/life/experience than men - so I want to hear about teaching about it and also feel seen.